Firstly, mod mode: Participants in this thread are to play nice or I will send their ass home. It's a shame I have to even say this, but people like to get defensive and whiny about the things people may post here. If you see something in this thread that offends you, take deep breaths and think before giving a retort, if at all. Let's have a mature discussion, alright?

Now for my contribution, one thing that irks me is out-of-character BS, like a super bashful Engineer, ultra-effeminate Spy or Medic, or mega cuddle bear Heavy. To me it just seems like some of these characteristics just get exaggerated poorly and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As crazy as TF2 is, that sort of characterization can really throw me out of enjoying art/fic with it, no matter what else is going on.

Also, Sambogineer sends me into a blind rage every time I see it. Worst thing to come out of the Helmet Party.

>>9170
Damn it, I never even thought of the birth control thing. Now that's going to make me irritated. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single time even two dudes pulled out a condom in a fic period. No STDs existed in the 1960s!

Least favorite thing though? Kilo already mentioned when canon dudes get all fluffy and out of character. Pretty much that. Yes yes, there are a bunch of guys about to buttfuck each other in your story, but try to keep in mind these guys are a bunch of mercenaries, not...highschoolers, or something.

>>9174
I sometimes like the fluff, but only if it's consistently fluffy. If they start out badass and become fluffy, then, just...ugh.

As for the 'no STD's' thing, you're being facetious, right? Because they definitely had STD's in the 60's.

But as to what bugs me? Lack of realism, and less-than descriptive writing. I prefer well-written bad sex to fairly-written good sex any day.

>>9175
Sorry, sorry. I guess my facetious doesn't translate well.

By the way
>>9173
Please forgive my ever loving ignorance, but what on earth is 'Sambogineer'?

>>9176
Click the spoilered picture and feel enlightened.

>>9173
>Sambogineer
>worst thing to come out of the Helmet Party
>implying it isn't the best

>>9178
That thing makes me die every time I see it.

As for me, I echo LadyRhian's sentiments about the desu.

>>9180
I WILL FIGHT YOU, MAGGOT. YOU DON'T KNOW THE HORRIFIC NIGHTMARE THAT IMAGE HAS BURNED INTO MY MIND!

In b4 people take me seriously.

Female Pyros.

Just. Just, no. They always come out either being too girly, too sexy, or just plain unrealistic. Its the 1960's, even if the Administrator is female, the brothers still run the show and they would not hire a woman they've never known. Not in that time period.

And, even in such a baggy suit, a smaller/"sexy" woman would not be able to fill it out like that, let alone survive in it with so little muscle. why dont you ever see chubby female pyros in fanfiction? I know there's art, but REALLY NOW.

Ive seen only one female Pyro fic I even liked, since it was pretty well written, but it hasnt updated in nearly a year now. Even then, i hate fics that make an entirely huge deal of it. "I AM WOMAN OMG EVERYONE/ONE OF YOU MUST FALL IN LOVE WITH/BECOME FASCINATED WITH ME"

Just. No.
I have taken to just abandoning any fics that turn into this. Pyro is and always will be a man... to me, at least.

I don't mind it if an artist uses an Anime style to draw Team Fortress 2, but I hate it when they use those freaking templates. You know what I mean, right? With the generic, kinda sorta Lucky Star-ish girly poses? Pass on that, thanks.

(Although, if you did do anime-stylings for TF2, why not go with a more 60s or 70s style of that? Like, Leiji Mastumoto or Tatsuo Yoshida?)

Additionally, Staff-Chick Medics. I hate when anybody writes a character too soft, but that really irritates the hell out of me.

If Pyro were a woman, I'm sure Valve could write her right. They're good at creating female characters who can kick ass, dress modestly, and be believable/have believable bodies.

If it's canon Medic and Heavy, yeah, I hate when they're portrayed as Staff Chick and always cudddly (although I do think Heavy has a sort of soft side), but with OC's, whatever. I usually don't pay attention to OC's to begin with, and from what I can tell, most fandom OC's (not just in TF2, but in general) end up becoming drastically different non-fandom OC's, anyways. And I can understand wanting to RP romance and not wanting to be some vicious asshole.

I am an eternal optimist, so I don't believe that there are inherently bad ideas, just ones executed poorly. (I mean, look at how some of the writers around here have breathed new life into Medic/Heavy, Soldier/Engineer, and Spy/Sniper. If I avoided something just because I didn't like the pairing, I'd miss out on some seriously awesome stories and fanarts.)

What makes me rage, regardless of fandom, is the artist/writer/whatever that presents themselves as Super Speshul Sparkly Supreme Being who are above critique, especially if what they produce are less than stellar.

The softer characterizations of our favorite death-tag playing sociopaths don't bother me that much. They are capable of selective compassion, after all, so I take the stories where they're "nicer" than what canon provides are moments when they're in the mood to be soft and cuddly. (And don't tell me they don't do soft and cuddly, because even the voice commands show a lot more variety than "MURDER DEATH KILL DESTROY".) Then again, since I do sometimes like to write the classes as less self-assured than they are in the game, I may be biased.

>>9184
I like female pyros, but, I hate it when they're written as too ~ sexy ~

This will forever be my favorite pyro depiction.

Actually, I take what I said back. The one fandom cliche that I absolutely loathe is the persistent meme that the Medic is a Sadistic Ex Nazi.

I get flames on the side of my face every time I think about this. Why does nobody ask what Engineer thinks about the Civil Right Movement or the Sniper about Aborigines or any other classes about the skeletons in their closets? If anybody on the team is an ignorant xenophobe, it's Soldier--every single one of his taunts against the other classes is some kind of insult against their nationality.

Just typing this has made me mad again. Now I need to go look at pictures of cute kittens to calm down.

Non-canon female characters get on my tits (c wut I did thar).

And in fanart I hate cross-dressing. Unless it's forced at gunpoint, I just don't like it.

>>9193

Honestly, this is the only fan cliché that seriously pisses me off. I'm a big unfan of ultra-femmy Scout and Spy/Scout as a pairing, but it doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth like "evil nazi Medic" does. That the Medic, living in Germany in that timeframe, may have served in the German military is believable, but in my opinion, using the nazi trope in place of original characterization for Medic is worse than just unimaginative; it's trite and offensive to glorify the Third Reich in any way, especially in a fandom.

I hate ex-Nazi Medic too, but when trying to figure out what he was doing instead, I can't pin down a specific reason. Gay? Jewish? Just plain disagreed with the whole master race bullshit? A mixture of these?

I like crossdressing as just an unrelated fetish thing, but I love when (if someone has a female OC) she wears the male uniform. Although that's considered crossdressing less and less now.

>>9192
Alright, I do like that Pyro. That's the sort of Pyro I meant, though. Id still appreciate Pyro as my favorite class if Valve made em a woman, so long as it was realistic and respectable.

Honestly, I can say the same about any female OCs. They need to be tough and rough. None of that super-sexy, men-go-gaga bullshit and tiny figures, these girls have to be strong enough to at least slowly drag a wounded Heavy out of enemy fire. Even Scout could probably manage that if he tried.

>>9201
>Even Scout could probably manage that if he tried.
This makes me want to see fanart of that exact situation. Seems like something that would be pretty badass.

On-topic, I absolutely loathe and despise is when maps get fucked with. 2fort does not have a lounge, for fuck's sake. It's a godamn barn with a fancy oversized office underneath it.
Also yes, oversexy Pyros are pretty bad, too.

>>9198

I am totally in agreement on the not liking SADISTIC NAZI!Medic. Now, I'll read just about anything if it's written well. There are a couple of authors on here who have written Medic as very close to this, but have done it so well that I haven't minded. That's one thing. It's quite another to stick him in an SS uniform in his off hours and have his experimentation on others be because he gets off on causing pain, rather than FOR SCIENCE!

His morality seems to be a bit...fluid. But there's nothing there implying he's a sadist. And as for the Nazi business, quite frankly he's the wrong type. The face that Hitler wanted the Nazi party to show was the blond, blue-eyed, athletic, angelic super-race he was urging Germany to create. ( Ironic, since Hitler was the antithesis of that image.) Medic does not fit that mold. Most noticeably because of the dark hair. So while he might have served in the German army, sure, it'd be practically impossible for him to have been an SS officer or any other kind of higher ranking official in the Nazi party or military. It would have been much more likely for him to operate behind the scenes.

That being said, while much of Germany regarded Hitler as a savior, not all of them did. Even before people started disappearing and losing their civil rights, there were dissenters. People who didn't want Germany to go to war. People who didn't like Hitler's rhetoric. And, just like today, there were people who were neutral. Who were too busy trying to live their everyday lives to care about what the political parties got up to. And especially at the beginning of the Nazi party's rise to power, that was a lot of Germany. They were still reeling from the outcome of WWI and... Oops, this has gotten rather long-winded and history-lecture-y hasn't it. Sorry!

My point is that not all Germans were nazis. Not all Germans were pro- or anti- Nazi either. It's totally possible that Medic might not even have CARED, until people started eyeing his dark hair and whispering to themselves.

TL;DR - I AGREE THAT MINDLESS DEPICTION OF NAZI!MEDIC IS FAIL.

>>9186
TF2 drawn with features that are more common in anime or Japanese visual media than Western is fine for me, I just don't like the kind that would be considered "generic weeaboo". TF2 done in the style of Berserk/BLAME!/Zetman/Jojo would be pretty sweet, anime but still manly looking as hell.

>>9170
>inter-team romances/sex between genderswapped classes with no mention of prophylactics or birth control
in other fandoms, this bugs me too.
but in TF2, i always figured the Respawn would take care of it. knocked her up? just shoot her in the face and she'll respawn not-pregnant again.

Oh man... Okay, TF2 done in seventies anime style would be kind of cool, as opposed to a lot of the annoying stuff.

I like Pyro as male or female (I've written both, I've drawn both, I'll read/look at both), and gender doesn't really change how I characterize or 'ship Pyro, but yeah, I definitely hate the sexy girl Pyro. The suit's got not much chest and a fair amount of booty, so if it's a woman in there, she's got to be pretty pear-shaped. Which can certainly be appealing, but you're so much more likely to see top-heavy sex object-looking... yeah, just... ugh.

Of course, if it's an OC/genderbend and not somebody's headcanon for what's in the suit, then I guess as long as she looks capable of wielding the equipment and isn't too unrealistic for job or time period, then I'm less likely to get up in arms.

Unrealistic-for-combat genderbends, of course, that one will get to me.

I'm also sick of Sadistic Ex-Nazi Medic, though I have enjoyed Politically Unaware Ex-Collaborator Medic, if the author treats the touchy subject matter well, but it really depends, both on how it's written and on how I'm doing emotionally when I start reading, because I have been known to turn into a wreck.

I guess mostly, though, I'm a live-and-let-live type of fan. Like, there are a few pairings that are or have been popular that I really don't care for, but they don't set me off the way too much Nazi Medic or bad fems will.

>>9206
But eeeeverybody knows pregnancy and disease are imaginary things in porn...

Seriously, though, it does bug me a little when folks do that. Hell, I've seen Sailor Moon fics that were more aware of needed precautions when the characters would get teh humpiness going.

>>9192
Oi, Valve! See this Pyro? This works. Use it.

>>9203
It could have a lounge, theoretically. All we see on the map are the battley parts, but there are other buildings behind them that could have something like that.
Probably not on RED, because yeah, all barn, but BLU might have one somewhere.
I mean, we don't see any bunks when we battle, but these guys have to sleep somewhere, right?

Not meaning to go back to a topic already hammered, but I guess I always found it easy to get a back story for the Medic during WWII. I always assumed that he fled Germany. I mean, other scientists did. Brain drain in action.

Medic, Sniper, and Spy

I actually think it might have been said before, but yeah, I hate it when people don't think of birth control with fem-chars, especially in /afanfic/.

>>9192

On the subject of female Pyros, I've always liked this one.

Anyways, in fanfic, I tend to see a lot of capturing intelligence or points and with stories taking place on 2fort. While there's nothing wrong with that, I wish more maps and game modes would be represented. A chapter or story focusing on a Payload match has some potential.

>>9222
That one's alright, but she really doesnt look like she could fill in that suit the way canon Pyro can.

Re messing with the maps- On some maps, I assume there are basic living areas beyond the 'no access' doors, with the big red slash-in-a-circle over them, since on a remote base with a 9-5 style work week of blowing people up, it might not always be possible for the mercs to go home every night, depending on where they keep their homes.

Of course, not all the maps have room for that kind of thing, but not all maps are technically opposing bases... and in those cases, I assume there's another building nearby that the men can repair to between battles.

Then again, to me, it's usually easier and less stressful to make something up than to get pissed off over things... I really try to avoid getting mad.

(Bad Mary Sues make me sigh and shake my head, but they usually don't piss me off...)

When I was referring to slender, girlish figures, this is the kind of character I was thinking of. My first thought on seeing it was: "Living with nine guys, she won't have that slender, girlish figure for long..."

>>9230
Fuck that, how's she breathing with that bandaid on her face?

>>9226
I agree. I don't think they're swanky, more like a worn-out couch and a small, black-and-white TV, though.

...Then again, though, in Poker Night, Heavy said they had a waffle bar in the commissary. Not canon, I know, but...

>>9193
Fucking this.

Genderbends where there's no effort also annoy me. TF2 =/= Hookers with rocket launchers.

>>9233
Yeah, the junky couch and b+w set is what I always picture. Maybe a card table and a radio. Definitely nothing fancy (though I imagine BLU's common areas being a little sleeker-- still not fancy, just in line with the aesthetics.)

>>9230
the only bit of that I like is the pompom pistols... mostly because it amuses me how if they were in game, they'd either end up having to be stiff and bristly like a ball of spikes or would have so many jigglebones that they'd drive the modders batshit.

>>9231

I think it's supposed to be something like one of those "breathe right" strips, as most anime characters have teeny tiny noses. :)

>>9240

And especially with her being called the "morale officer", I can only see the mercenaries being all like "I'd have much better morale if you'd sleep with me..."

Another thing that has peeved me off with fanart recently is having the mercenaries with their chests bared or clothes off look like bodyconscious body-builders with absolutely no body hair at all (or very minimal hair on their bodies). I see them as being a little more furry, so to speak (within reason, based on nationality- I don't see any of them as "needs to shave to look human" territory). But let's face it, body hair can be nice. :)

People who get super mad butthurt about setting accuracy. Yeah, there's a point where any original content goes a little too far, but for the most part, the TF2 setting is a humorous alternate universe with all kinds of crazy, impossible shit going on. Of course you should consider the time period when writing anything, but you've got plenty of wiggle room. This game isn't supposed to be taken super seriously anyway, so there's no point in getting upset over small details.

Effeminate ANYONE. Medic and Scout get this the worst, and I cannot even fathom how, because if you even pay a modicum of attention to any character in-game or in the "Meet The" videos they aren't like that at all. Even Scout, who is probably the most "bishie" in looks, is still as violent, aggressive, and rude as the rest. I'm all for making the characters a bit less exaggerated and more civil/nicer in day-to-day routines, but even so, no one is girly.

A certain type of Heavy/Medic fanfic. You know the one. Medic is closet gay, Heavy is a gay/bi guy comfortable with himself, Heavy has to convince Medic that feeling the way he does is okay, usually through sugary fluff and fucking the pain away. Maybe it's because I'm just not a fan of the pairing (but, you know, opinions), but that story arc has been done so many times I can identify it almost immediately at the beginning of a fic. I really hate cliches in general, but that's the one I see the most. I'd really love to see people branch out a bit more.

>>9242
The body hair is not just a TF2 thing. Media in general tends to portray men as hairless bodybuilders. I remember I had a conversation with a friend about it, and she says that trend may have started with Brad Pitt. He actually did have body hair, but also was blonde so you couldn't really see it. So media picked up on that and started applying that trend in general. If you look at older movies in general (especially from the 70s), men had plenty of chest/body hair. It wasn't seen as a big deal (neither were naked breasts, but that's a different story).
As for its application in TF2, I see most of the classes as being quite fit (even Heavy is all muscle underneath his gut), but not hairless at all (except Scout lololol). I find some body hair to be sexy as hell.

also
>>9230
>pom-pom guns

WHY AM I LAUGHING

Sometimes in afanfics I feel that people pose the chracters as being too old. I'm not going to punch a baby over it, It is just something I find slightly unlikeable.

I mean no offense to anybody, but Most people say that Medic is what, 50 and up? You can still be sexualy active at that age, yes, but in Medic... he seems like the type of person that would find himself too proccupied to be doing something as silly as sex at his age. I feel like I'm getting too technical because it is an afanic and I should just sit back and enjoy it.

I lived with my grandmother most of my life, and she was a fairley young age of 40 when she took me in. Now she is in her late fifties. Early on, you could hear her and her husband. (My step-grandfather) going at it through the walls at least once every other month or so. But a few years befor I graduated and she had started her fifties, I almost never heard them. Once or twice every six or seven months mabey?

I just know I sound crazy as fuck when I say that I "listened" to my grandparents make love through the walls, but it was more or less by force since my room bordered on theirs and the walls were thin as cardboard.

I digress, my father started his thirties shortly after my teenage years began. And his six year younger girlfriend often complained about him not wanting to have sex as often as she did. (Which was probably like... once every five minutes.) But he had loads of energy that stuck with him till he hit his forties regardless.

I guess it just peeves me that some people write their charaters being in their mid forties (besides Scout) when, in my opinion, they should probably still only be in their thirties. Besides sex, wouldn't it make more sense to have the characters in more of a fit condition since they're in a war? I'm not saying people in their forties can't be fit, and I'm not saying that people in their fifties are going to forget where they are every five minutes, It just seems like they'd want mercinaries more in youth. But mabey this is all just me.

And I don't necisarily like youthfull men. I love Engineer and his "I've been 'round the world an' back" way of looking at things. I love his intelegence, his baldness, his accent, his pudge rolls. I love pictures of him depicted as manly as possible, (Chest thick with hair, arms and face splattered with grease.) Engineer is only one out of all of them, and I love them all for their quirks. But even with Sniper's frown lines and Medic's slightly grey hair, none of them could be in their fifties.

*Steps down from soap box.*

>>9245

Not this again. Please, anything but age discussions. It always ends in argument.

>>9245
> *Steps down from soap box.*
This here is something we don't do around here. It's one of the things we use to determine if a poster is underaged who aren't allowed on the site for legal reasons.

What would have been better is if you had said "I'll get off my soapbox now". If you don't want to raise the suspicions of the mods for underage b&, I recommend reading and following the rules on the front page.

Also, I'm behind >>9248 in that an age discussion is dead horse. Please refrain from beating it.

>>9245

Not touching this with a 20 foot pole. I've said my piece on this elsewhere.

>>9243

Yeah, I don't like "girly" characters, either. Sometimes, i think its an outgrowth of those prejudiced people who think that one person in a gay partnership has to play the "wife"/husband (and Valve is somewhat complicit in this, with the whole "Medic's Geisha Wig" thing. I get rather hot under the collar with the whole gay relationships must be the same as male/female relationships, including there being one girly waifu character and one manly man "husband" who protects his cringing little flower and orders her around...

Excuse me I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.... Suffice to say. it pisses me off bigtime. And now I want to see fanart/fic where the gender "roles" are reversed- Manly man Medic taking care of girlish Heavy... if only for the laugh.

Sparkledog Centralists (And 2 of my friends) flipping their god damned shit when I point out small inaccuracies in their OC's
Like when I ask why they made their characters 12 (And not using child warfare as an excuse.), Why they made Sniper into a rapist and Medic into a complete Nazi monster, Why are they making new classes when they do the same thing as an already existing class, Why are your genderbends strippers, Why is your character having sex with all the other classes,
How is your character carrying that extremely large gun and is so small and thin that she could be blown away by the breeze, If you can draw why are you using templates, Why is your class called 'The Gardener' if they are on a desert bases and the characters set up loosely described 'traps', and most importantly towards my friends, WHY DO YOU KEEP TAKING MY IDEAS AND PASS THEM OFF AS YOUR OWN YOU ASSHOLES. AND STOP TAKING MY OC AND ROLEPLAYING WITH HER BEHIND MY BACK, SHE DOES NOT ENJOY YOU RAPING HER YOU FUCKTARDS.

And then the white knights come and its like I was called a bigot and an asshole with no life for trying to tell them that they improve their ideas, and their drawing as well.

Well now that's out of the way, I also don't like the extreme ukefication of the characters unless it is done in a way that is actually funny and not just annoying as fuck.

>>9249
I've read the rules, Shouldn't have done that. Sorry about the age thing, I honestly didn't know people had argued about it before. And I've lurked here since 2010... Sorry.

>>9256
I don't know. I think people read into the Geisha wig a way too much. I've always seen it as being there because it's funny (saw a Medic wearing the wig and the Deus Ex sunglasses yesterday, was baller as fuck and also hilarious).

Either way, the thing is, not even all heterosexual relationships fall into that category either. Most relationships in general are somewhere in between. I think people make the association in Medic's case that "OH HE'S A HEALER HE MUST BE THE GIRLY ONE", despite the fact that he's arguably the most violent and sadistic member of the cast (or is certainly up there). And Scout because he's skinny and young (but not even that short. The short award goes to Engineer, who we all know is manly as fuck)
Speaking of height, what's with the weird assumption that the taller partner must be the dominant one? I see this in a lot of things, not just TF2.

I'd love to see more role reversal, it would be hilarious and refreshing.

>>9257
Ukefication might work if it's a parody. Otherwise, I don't want to see it.

This has more to do with the fans than the art and fiction, but I hate it when people truly flip their crap over small liberties artists and authors take.

Not "Well, I don't like this, but here's concrit to make it better." I mean the full-blown "I HATE YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU STAND FOR WHY WON'T YOU DIE STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!" bulldada.

I'm just thankful that I see less of it now than I have been.

It honestly seems more immature to me than using emotes.

>>9266
It IS more immature than emote usage which is why I will come down harder on folks who try pulling that shit here. At least with the emotes I give a warning. The whiny bullshit will get you banned faster than you can say "baaaawwww".

>>9269
Just clarifying, I meant the occasional smiley to lighten up something that might be taken out of context without. The "I AM A FAGGOT HUMP MY RUMPDDD" "^////^" "<3" crap bugs me to no end.

Please don't hunt me down and break my kneecaps. I'll go back to lurking now..

>>9278
Huh. So THAT'S what the "I am a faggot" thing filters from.

>>9257

Oh, please, I have gotten this myself. I see so many artists pairing RED Spy/BLU Sniper with both of them being "Oh, it's TWU WUV!" (pukes) and I comment, "Wait a second, isn't the RED Spy with BLU Scout's Mom?" and I get my throat jumped down with both feet. "These are OC's HATERPANTS!" And they never say this in the original artist's notes. How am I supposed to know? Just because the Spy isn't wearing his Balaclava? Pssh!

>>9265

Yeah, I know not all hetero relationships even fit that mold, but the people who think that way think that they *should*. From what I have seen they think that all relationships should have one "man/husband" and one "woman/wife". It doesn't make sense, but there you go. Reality and these people don't generally get along too well.

what really gets my goat is when people mix english and a character's native language to the point of ridiculousness. Having Spy say 'merde'/'oui' or having Medic say 'Nein, dummkopf' is completely acceptable in moderation. hearing things like 'Ich am' all the time really make me cringe. it's just that nobody with a competent grasp on the english language mixes it up to that extent. plus, it's kind of aesthetically unpleasing to read, for consistency's sake.

>>9284

If someone writes dialogue like that, I'd be shocked if they know more than one language.

Personally I get weirded out by burnt/horribly disfigured Pyros. I mean, it makes sense and all but none of the other characters have horrible mutilating scars. Even Demoman's missing eye doesn't appear to have damage around it.

>>9265
And I fucking hate it when people attempt to justify Scout ukefication (Scout seems to get the most ukefag apologists) as putting a tough guy who mouths off in his place. I mean, it's one thing to do things like make Heavy bottom despite looking more like the "man" in the relationship, and I enjoy Heavy bottoming in porn, but I'd never want to see him crying or being forcefully dominated in a way that looks like he's getting raped in a picture where he's supposed to be enjoying it.

>>9288
To be fair, the eye can be damaged and/or rendered nonfunctional extremely easily with minimal or even no damage at all to surrounding tissues. An errant spark or shrapnel filament striking in just the right manner, and the organ is destroyed.

Fire, however, is not so precise.

Dear Tumblog roleplayers:

Pictures someone drew of the canon classes, screenshots of people playing TF2, drawings of other peoples' OC's, and cosplay photos of other people ARE NOT OF YOUR OC. It just seems a little weird to me. Especially if these artists who hate the idea of OC's existing at all suddenly get tons of comments of "Oh, [insert name of someone's Medic here], you're so crazy" and it's...not.

>>9326
Y'know what, just skip this post. I regret saying that.

>>9331
Why would you regret saying that? I agree with the post, it's very annoying when people do that.

>>9333
My friend just proceeded to point out after I'd made the post that it could come off as white knighting, especially if I don't know the artist personally.

Stuff like that's never sat right with me. Like people using someone elses' fanart and cropping it and messing with the colors and so on. I draw myself, but even though it's never happened to me, I've seen it happen to others.

Communist heavy and National Socialist medic.

>>9339

I know Heavy has the Iron Curtain and Pilotka, but I always figured the hammer and sickle was solidarity to his country, not to Communism. If that makes sense. Was Heavy's father really in the White Army, or was that a story the Director made up for dramatic purposes?

I don't see Medic as Communist, either, but I also don't see him as Fascist.

Fics where Soldier is/acts like team leader.

He is a mercenary just like all of them, he has no promotion higher than the other 8 members, and he has no right to command them in what they do. Sure he's a deranged not-really army war veteran who views himself as a captain but it just doesn't seem fair. It's like bossing around your co-workers.
Yeah. I'll stop bitching about it here.

>>9346

I'm not sure I understand this one just quite, considering a lot of the promotional material with Soldier kind of suggests that he tries to take on leadership roles, like in Meet the Spy he's in that control room, or he's often seen as giving strategy tactics, or that he seems to runs the practice training mode area... If not trying to be a leader, Soldier sure does seem to try being a mentor figure. Is the issue more of just not your personal taste or that you really feel that it isn't canon?

>>9348
>>9346
I could see him acting like a leader and the more easy-going team members going along with it. But I could also see, for example, Scoot or Spy flouting his "authority" just to be dicks. If he's got any official superior rank, I've missed it in the canon material.

>>9354
haha. No official rank, but I'm just saying. The guy made himself medals for his service, so it feels like the character is one to make himself important even if he really isn't. So it struck me as odd that this seemed out of place in fanfics. I could understand for fics that say Soldier ranks higher because there is no canon for that, but for fics were Soldier's acting like he's the leader when he isn't I didn't see how it would conflict with canon.

>>9346
don't worry, you're not the only one. for some reason, fics where soldier assigns people "KP duty" or where he wakes them up at the crack of dawn and they actually get up and listen to him...that kind of stuff makes me cringe. just because soldier might think he's some sort of leader doesn't mean the rest of team (yes, especially headstrong/prideful members like scout, spy, and heavy) is going to listen to him.

personally, what's starting to get a little bit annoying is the sheer overusage of 2fort in fanfiction, like setting the story there is just an afterthought. i know it's probably one of the most iconic maps, but i'm tired of seeing every author and their mother set stories in 2fort that don't even mention intelligence-grabbing/any other trademark of said map. what's wrong with dustbowl, sawmill, pipeline, or goldrush?

>>9381

I usually just use "generic vaguely CP-ish map" when writing. Most of my works can be read with either team in mind, so I generally stick to CTF, CP, or KoTH. (Haven't gotten around to brainstorming anything for Payload Race yet. I should someday...)

>>9346 etc
The thing I don't get with this isn't why Soldier's doing it, because it makes sense, but why so often the others characters tend to just sort of... go along with it. You know--follow his orders, listen to his debriefings, take his abuse? I can't imagine any of the classes just sort of shrugging and accepting that Soldier's allowed to boss them around. In fact, that would make a really neat fic--expanding on Soldier's grasping for some authority position and not really being respected in the least by the rest of the team, and the dynamic there--but no, a lot of authors just sort of accept that Soldier's being in control is some sort of fanon that they don't need to explain. And it BUGS ME.

>>9458
I always saw it as a sort of "Eh let's just humor him, maybe he'll shut up."

>>9458

I always figured that they went along with it because it made Soldier happy, and by not going along with it, he becomes even more obnoxious. Sure it encourages his behavior, but it ends up becoming the lesser of two evils overall.

>>9463
>>9464
true. but there's a difference between pretending to listen to him to humor him and actually going along with his crazy shit (e.g. taking his debriefings seriously or accepting his punishments). it's just that i've always seen him as just another one of the gang, and not explicitly as a sort of impromptu leader. seeing a fic where soldier has so much control over the rest of the team is sort of annoying.

>>9475
Would you rather have a delusional lunatic with a rocketlauncher happy with you, or angry with you?

'Nuff said.

>>9484
they probably just ignore him/pretend to do as he asks. they would either be too lazy to actually do as he says or have too much pride to do so....

i know it works for a lot of fics, but i'm not quite sure i like it when respawn is toyed with. for example, "respawn is turned off at night for energy-saving purposes, and that's why so-and-so died." well, wouldn't they just spawn when the machine was powered up again?

The genderbends... This subject has already been touched on, but I'm kinda on the other end here.

It's not that it bothers me too much when I see the super masculine female variations, but it’s more the general attitude of the fandom that they just HAVE to be that way that irks me. Scout can double jump. Soldier can rocket jump and wear headgear that pretty much blinds him. Hell, Demoman can run really freaking fast with ridiculously large melee weapon (and a peg leg apparently makes him better at turning and gives him more health IDK). And these are all accepted as normal because they work in TF2’s kind of ridiculous but humorous universe.

But as soon as a genderbend looks like she might not be able to realistically hold her largest weapon or has a little sex appeal, that apparently is… so wrong. I guess I don’t see why the women are held to a higher standard than what is already canon for the men. They are all basically caricatures, yet these women have to be realistic.

Now the part I agree on is the clothing. The femscout probably shouldn’t be wearing a miniskirt and the fempyro should in fact have something on under the suit because damn that would not feel good. But perhaps to the same ratios of realism and design as the canon characters...

Unless the artist is going for a more pin-up style. Then they can do all the short shorts and cleavage because that’s kinda the point.

There is also a sad lack of hats in the fanart (especially /afanart/) and we simply need more hats! I mean, how can we claim to be drawing real fanart if we ignore the entire point of the game?

Out of character stuff, team-bicycle Scout, and people who get mouthy about TF2 and act like they are the #1 fan when they haven't even played the game.

>>9458

I read this, and the fic idea hit. ...I'm working on it now, we'll see how it goes.

>>9493
Oh, God, yes.
Only with everyone else, too.
Medic and Spy also seem to be good candidates for bicycle making.

I agree with Dotchan that there aren't really any bad ideas in a fandom - just bad executions of said ideas.

I mean, just look at me. The synopsis of Breaking Point doesn't sound like much - Spy interrogates and tortures an enemy Scout for the whereabouts of his intelligence. Just saying it makes me think of all the sparkle-desu "NO, NO, YES" 'rape' fics in the world. But I like to think that I was able to make it into something brutally interesting and different.

What annoys me is when someone takes an idea and doesn't try to do anything new with it. Like, Spy runs into Sniper, they fight, but somewhere along the line they fall in LOOOVE and have hot desu sex and everything is sunshine and sparkles afterwards. If it's a PWP, that's okay. It's to be expected. But even then, you could try SOMETHING different. Stories that are actually trying to be SERIOUS that do this make me even more upset.

Okay, last rant for the day. Femclasses. Lots of people are like, "Well, why do femclasses have to make sense when the male classes are kind of silly bluhbluhbluh." Simply put, they don't. They don't have to be realistic any more than the guys have to be. One thing I DESPISE, though is the femclasses not making any sense to make room for SXC FANSERVICE.

Guys, TF2 is not a sexy game. Also, the guys might not make sense all the time, but they all still look like WARRIORS, not pin-ups. They all still look like they could kick your ass - yes even the more bony ones of Scout and Spy and Sniper. Making femclasses that are nothing but fanservice ruins the feel of the game, and is just plain immature. "OH THERE'S A LADY IN THE TEAM - LET'S HAVE HER IN HEALS, A MICROSKIRT, AND BOOOOBS EVERYWHEEEERE LOLOLOL *fap*"

No.

Sorry for raging, and sorry for stereotyping, though - it's just REALLY how I see anyone who thinks that sort of thing is... acceptable. Ugh.

>>9496
I agree that argument is silly, since it's not just about realism. Character designs are supposed to say something about a character, not just look good. That's why it's easier to buy femSpy wearing high heels than the other classes, because Spies are... vain, I guess.

>>9496
>>9500

Okay. I feel like these two are replying to what I said, so I'm going to expand on my point here since I think I was a little misunderstood. If not, carry on.

We need to keep in mind that there are many different types of genderbends. We have the ones that try to keep them as close to the original design as possible. We have the ones that are made out to be what the character would be like if they had been born female, keeping a more realistic feel. We also have the kinds that are completely new characters with new histories and relations. And finally the "pin-up" style.

And which one you or an artists likes and makes is really up to which is their preference. So if so and so likes the ones that are visually closest to the canon characters best, it doesn't mean that those genderbends are actually better than another type.

Guys, TF2 is not a sexy game. Also, the guys might not make sense all the time, but they all still look like WARRIORS, not pin-ups. They all still look like they could kick your ass - yes even the more bony ones of Scout and Spy and Sniper. Making femclasses that are nothing but fanservice ruins the feel of the game, and is just plain immature.

To this point, all I really need to say is /afanart/. I enjoy a good amount of art, but TF2 smut and porn is... pretty much fanservice to us fans who enjoy men.

I also think that artists who turn horse-faced sniper into something prettier or give Engie a super buff body are creating fanservice.

And if we are accepting of fanservice in the male characters, why get so mad about it in the female variations?

>>9501
Because its more believable with the men.
Sure, we might be giving Snipes a bit of leeway on his face and Engie's probably got a little more pudge than what we like to believe, but at least the way most people portray the guys in art isnt too over-the-top unrealistic (at least until you get into super-kink territory). I can imagine a human being looking like that.

What I cant imagine is a human being with Barbie doll proportions running around (even in practical clothing) and holding her own in battle.

>>9502

I think most people's real problem with a lot of genderbends is that you have pinup-style or purely fanservice designs trying to be passed off as legitimate. Most of the shit in /afanart/ and /afanfic/ is completely ridiculous and just as unbelievable as some of those terrible genderbent designs, but the artists and writers completely acknowledge the fact that it's porn. I've seen a couple of male OCs that were nothing more than fetish fuel for the creators, and they were just as stupid, creepy, and hilarious as the female versions.

If an artist were to draw a genderbend in a sexy pose and say "I drew a pin-up style fanart" or "I drew porn", I think a lot less people would take issue than if they said "THIS IS MY WELL-THOUGHT OUT AND INTELLIGENT GENDERBENT DESIGN YOU GUYS!" Porn is porn, and so long as you acknowledge the fact, I'm not going to get mad because you happen to get off to something different than I do.

>>9503
What bugs me is that TF2, and Valve, are so well-known for their distinctive character designs, and it's irritating to see genderbends that look like generic, interchangeable Barbie Dolls. Maybe one doesn't expect too much artistic quality from porn, but if you're doing not-porn, you should put more of the character into the design. Lady Heavy should be muscley and fat. Lady Sniper should be reedy and flat-chested and have weird teeth.

Realism doesn't matter too much to me. I could see Lady Spy running around in a pinstriped skirt and stiletto heels, imported from the latest runways of Paris, because lol it's Spy. But Spy is the only character who would do so because he's the only one who gives half a shit about fashion. The designs should reflect the character's personalities, is what I'm saying. Barbie dolls don't have any personality.

>>9506
THIS. this is what annoys me more than anything else. i cannot stand expendable genderbends without personalities. give them some flavor; it doesn't matter what. make scout the tough tomboy or the obnoxious track star, make heavy the bombastic ball of life or silent, brooding personification of Mother Russia. whatever you do, give your genderbends life and flair.

>>9501

Nah, mate. Sniper wouldn't kick your ass... unless you were too close to hit with his rifle. He'd just give you a new ventilation hole for your brain... through your face. And yeah, he has a long, horsey-face. Some of us like that.

>>9502

Not to mention Sasha in-canon weighs 300 pounds. You have to give femme-Heavy the shoulders and upper body to handle all that weight. Otherwise, it's gonna look like her arms should rip off at the shoulder. Her legs, too, should be built to handle that weight. Point is, she won't look like a Barbie Doll, she's gonna resemble a female weight-lifter more than anything.

>>9496
Okay, I am suffering a "does not compute" here. Bicycle? Is this some euphemism for gay sex I am unfamilliar with?

>>9508

The town bicycle; everyone gets a ride.

>>9508
>>9507
>>9506

>>9503 here.

I think you guys are kind of missing my point. Of course if you're really going to try and make a legitimate character or genderbend you need to be faithful to the originals and be practical. You're preaching to the choir, we can (and have) talk about practicality and logic till we're blue in the face.

I'm trying to make the point that simply if it's porn, there's really no need to be so involved. Again, if someone's trying to actually use their super speshul snowflake Mary Sue OC in something and presenting it as a well-thought out character, yes that's a problem, but if it's just porn, it's just porn. Enough crazy shit goes on in the porn involving the men, so I don't see why people get so upset about the crazy shit involving women.

>>9510
Oh, okay. In my family, that was known as "The Public Convenience", where everyone gets to make a deposit. Learn something new every day!

>>9526
Your family dinner chats must be awesome.

>>9512
Agreed 100%. I remember a smut fic once that had a Mary-Sue-ish female OC, and everyone FLIPPED out about it, because it was basically 'Oh no, Sniper, don't touch me there, oh take me now.' So all the feminists were raging hard. And I'm just sitting there like 'GUYS. IT'S PORN. FAP AND MOVE ON.'

Ridiculous. People shouldn't get so bent out of shape over things that are just for fappage purposes, really. I mean, if it attempts to be a real story, yeah, I could see it, but don't hold FEM OC stories to a different standard than the guy ones. That's just not fair.

>>9551
FYI, I would have flipped out just as hard if it had been male on male.
And I dunno, but even smut just for smut's sake should at least make a lick of sense, at least in my humble opinion. Whether it's sexist or mean or whatever, oh well, but if it goes from "no I don't like you at all" and "oh god sexings NAO", it's simply not hot to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either.

You can't say "It's just sex!" and throw ALL decency and sense out of the window. Not even smut works like that. Good writing is important, even (or rather especially) in porn!

>>9552
There has to be good writing, but who says all good writing has to be realistic? If Scout is a blatant homophobe who is healed from his prejudice by the magic powers of an all-man orgy, then why not?

I mean, if we're talking lengthy stories with characterization, and plot, and all that fancy stuff, yes, realism is important. But if it's just PWP, I don't see the point in getting all bent out of shape. It's like bitching about the lousy acting in a video on redtube.
Seriously. Those twink boys cannot act, though. Fucking terribad.

>>9551
I remember that story.
I actually liked the idea of Assist. Just the name and the purpose, it just fit with tf2 so well. The character and the story however did not.

Anyways, thing that bugs me most about TF2 fantards is when they draw themselves hugging and kissing characters (like Medic) and being all dawwwwkawaiidesu about it. It's just, ugh, Someone the age of Medic would NOT be interested in a 15 year old so please stop. It just erks me to no end. 'specially after I notice people like Demo, Solly and Heavy only get attention if they are gary-sue'd first to be 17 and geniuses..

>>9534
They used to be, back when everyone was here and compos mentis. Now it's just me and Dad and conversation doesn't happen because he's deaf.

>>9551
The Amount of sheer hate that story generated was hard for me. Because I agreed with a lot of the problems with the story and how OOC all the other character were. (Engie asking if she was on the rag (or however he phrased it)... now, come on! But at the same time, I had no problem with the premise- that the Announcer decided to bring in someone to cook for them- I just didn't like the blatant character assassination that went along with it. If you decide you are going to sex up a character who says they don't want it, even if they change their mind later... that's rape, to me. And I resent not only Sniper being turned into a rapist, but the others being complicit in it.

While some of the mercs might resort to rape under certain circumstances, there are characters I just don't see being party to that, Engineer being just one of them. The whole thing left a lot of distaste in my mouth.

Particularly because I was writing something similar and now I feel I'll never finish it because people will think it's too similar and I don't want to get that hate directed my way.

My least favorite thing to see is a lack of gay porn.

But seriously, OCs (besides sensible background characters).

I really hate how Sniper is often characterized as a filthy, creepy, voyeuristic rapist. In all of the Meet the videos, he is the only one engaging in personal hygiene, so I am not sure why so many people seem to think he is so filthy. I know he pees in jars, but I see that as him being a resourceful professional, not some kind of fetishist. I see all the potential for him to be a creep, and I get that some people are into it, but I just don't understand when and where the whole professional thing was lost. It seems to me he is portrayed as a filthy creep way more often than he is as a professional.

>>9604

I'm guessing the "filthiness" part is, aside from Jarate, comes from the idea that Sniper spent most of his pre-RED days in the wilderness and he might be the paranoid type to avoid communal showers for fear of surprise sex getting ganked. (He also sports a constant 5-o'clock shadow and Soldier calls him "Bilbo Baggins". He's probably less hairy than, say, the Heavy, but still plenty hirsute.)

As for the creepy voyeur part, he's a dude camped somewhere peering down a scope watching you masturbate. And have you listened to the man's voice commands? He ain't right in the head. And of course there's the whole inherent irony in the idea of a Sniper who claims to be Professional and Polite, but in actuality is a borderline rapist or whatever.

(But put me down as another person who doesn't like thinking of any class as a creepy rapist. Blowing people to gibs is okay, but giving someone an unwanted dick up the butt is not, apparently.)

>>9608
>Blowing people to gibs is okay, but giving someone an unwanted dick up the butt is not, apparently

Their body respawns, their dignity doesn't.

>>9608
His voice commands are definitely creepy, but based on their voice commands, I think you can safely say they are all insane. I think the Bilbo Baggins thing might be a modern reference to the films being shot in New Zealand and Soldier not knowing the difference between NZ and Australia. They also all have a 5 o'clock shadow or facial hair (except for Scout and we may never know about Pyro). I'm not sure where you're getting the paranoia thing from, though.

I do like the whole juxtaposition of him calling himself a professional and then him killing people in gross and humiliating ways and wearing crocodile heads as hats, but I still don't think every Sniper is a dirty paranoid creeper.

>>9620
Mentioning the Peter Jackson movies when the game's set in 1968 (as well as Sham-Wow! and stuff like that) is why I didn't understand why people thought the Earbuds were so weird or out-of-place.

>>9637
It's clearly not 1968. Rather, it's a magical alternate universe, a pastiche of the 60s, the modern age, the not too distant future, and whatever whimsical tomfoolery Valve conjures from the shimmering realm of imagination.

>>9637
The Hobbit came out in 1937 and Lord of the Rings in 1954-1955.

>>9604
>>9608
I am surprised the Spy doesn't get much of the "creeper peeper" effect, considering he can fricking turn invisible. Imagine you're a merc, it's been a long day, you settle down for a nice wank, and you're just on the edge when you hear that sound effect as the Spy's cloak dies...

The main reason so many people want invisibility as a Superpower is precisely this- to presumably peep on people doing private stuff. Most men mention something to the effect of "Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader Locker Room". And I could see the Spy enjoying that perk as a side-effect of his job...

>>9641
I know. I meant that the association of New Zealand and LoTR wasn't until the movies came out, as far as I can tell. Soldier's getting NZ and Australia mixed up.

>>9620
That's kind of the idea though. They're all exaggerated stereotypes put into the bodies of hilariously sociopathic mercenaries. Sure, they may be a bit more civil off the field/for a camera (except for Soldier and Medic - though Medic has shown us he can be affable and outgoing while still maintaining the same level of crazy), but they're violent cartoon characters in a violent cartoon world. You can really go in a lot of directions with their personalities, by taking canon traits and either playing them up or down while still being plausible. There's a limit to everything, though.

One character interpretation that I personally don't like is man-child Heavy. He talks simply because his English is bad, but he doesn't seem stupid or childish at all (regardless if you count Poker Night at the Inventory as canon).

I can only share one thing that annoys me as far as 'fantard abuse,' and that's the Heavy/Medic bug. This is just my opinion, and I try not to get irritated when I see it, but it's difficult not to get my jimmies rustled a tad when I see it in every other story I read, porn or not.

Mind, the only reason I've come to dislike the pairing is only for that reason. It's the default relationship; even Valve has played into it with the wigs. I'm not saying 'down with heavy/medic,' just down with putting it in stories when the story could be told without it. I feel the same with Sniper/Spy.

Just, if you're going to put a heavy/medic//sniper/spy relationship in a story, at least give that relationship a reason for being there. Don't just plug it into the story as excuse romance. (The Nucleus Incident, while I love it a lot, is a good example of this. I believe the story could still have been told well without those two sleeping together.)

Again though, my personal pet peeve.

>>9652
I don't see Heavy as dumb either, but I tend to characterize him as easily amused. Like a kid who's in accelerated classes in school, but gets home and watches Adult Swim and YouTube Poops.

>>9656
this. regardless of the fact that i'm not a huge fan of those pairings in the first place, i feel they're used for filler. e.g., if the focus of the story is an actual plot involving all the characters, i'll see a background heavy/medic in there for the sake of being there. i've seen really quality stories that have lost points in my book for excessively adding those pairings that they could've gone perfectly without.

>>9660
I think (this is regardless of fandom) that some writers think they're obligated in any fanfic to add pairings or porn. They don't have to.

Although if anyone has suggestions for good pairing-less fic, lemme know.

>>9659
Easily amused is fine. Makes sense for me as well, but not like the type of guy who has to be read bedtime stories and makes messy crayon drawings.

>>9656
>wigs
I've always gotten the impression that the wigs are just there to be silly. I fail to see all the subtext behind them, but some people get all upset over them, which is weird.

I do wholeheartedly agree with everything else you've (and others) have said. I'm not really a fan of romance in general, and it gets kind of hard to read a story (no matter how otherwise good) when there's an awkwardly placed couple necking in the background constantly. Same with sex too. It shouldn't be there unless necessary, and if it is necessary, you don't need to tell every detail (unless it's porn, then, by all means, go all out).

>>9662
I'll admit I went through a phase like that as a teenager. I think it's because romantic subplots and stories are shoved into pretty much everything nowadays, so it's inescapable. They're not always bad, but most of the time they're unnecessary.

>>9656
I don't like this, either, though it's hard to mind if it's a pairing that's really unusual. For example - Demoman and Spy. Hurrrng, dat. But then I start wanting to see more of that pairing, not the actual story, so I guess it still takes away from it in a way.

But, yeah. On a whole, I try to stay away from this trope because... Well, before I found a special SOMEONE, I was pretty anti-romance, and while I'm a lot better than I was before, I still think it should only be save for special occasions. In my opinion, if romance has become a boring trope in your story, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Most of my major pet peeves have already been mentioned by the others, so here's a milder one: It disappoints me that most writers seem to think that "maggot" is the only insult Soldier has at his disposal. If you look up his in-game quotes you'll see that most of them are surprisingly long-winded and creative, and some of his unused ones are even more so.

>>9668
Really? Well, I'll have to give that a looksies.

One thing that I don't HATE, but don't like either is big-fluffy-panda Heavy who's just a big soft cushie of love and happy and sweet and marshmallow fluff.

Even though his official description reads, word for word, "Like a hibernating bear, the Heavy appears to be a gentle giant. Also like a bear, confusing his deliberate, sleepy demeanor with gentleness will get you ripped limb from limb. Though he speaks simply and moves with an economy of energy that's often confused with napping, the Heavy isn't dumb; he's not your big friend and he generally wishes you'd just shut up before he has to make you shut up."

Now, don't get me wrong. The gentle giant trope is my FAVORITE characterization ever. It's just not for Heavy. I don't see him being needlessly aggressive, either - it's just that people tend to abuse Gentle Giant Heavy more (so that it's easier for him to bunk up with someone - usually Medic, sometimes Scout, other times a Sue).

I myself have trouble deciding how much good Heavy is too much good Heavy, but c'mon, people! At least there's effort there!

Not exactly fantarded, but I do not like it when people use the word "boy" to describe Scout. I'm cool with the other characters calling him one, but when the narration refers to him as such it rubs me the wrong way. This appearing in adult fanfiction is the worst offense because then I see Scout as underage and that just ain't right.

>>9676
To me, "boy" is what I'd call a man if they weren't mature in attitude. You can be fifty years old, and still be acting like a boy if you're playing fart jokes and such. To me, Scout is a boy in terms like that. I wouldn't have a problem with it so much in dialogue... to the other characters, Scout <i>would</i> be a boy. In narration, I'd feel very different about the term, because he's not a boy in age, so much as in... attitude? demeanor? something like that.

>>9678
This is how I see it, also. And, as a writer, sometimes it's just a lot... easier to just fall back and say "the boy" this or "the kid" that. Just because I hate using terms like "the young man" (which would be something I might call a Spy or Engineer if they were the same age) or "the teen" (purely aesthetic).

TL;DR, I tend to call Scout a boy in my narrations, too, but, as Rhian said, mainly because of his attitude than his age, and also to cut down on repetitive phrases. Oh, and because I like using it more than other, similar terms.

>>9668
Oh God, Soldier's lines are pure unbridled genius. I would be terrified to try to write him.

>>9672
Along this same route, I have issues with some characterizations of Heavy as well. Now, anything is funny once, and hell, I will read anything once, if it's written well. But there's a pattern I am starting to see that makes me wanna toss my cookies. And that's Housewife Heavy. You've read it... A story that's Heavy/Medic centric where Medic still acts like a man, which is good, but Heavy acts like some kind of gigantic Russian Carebear who wants nothing more than leetle house with white picket fence, with Doktor and leetle children (?!) running about. ...Um, it's all fine and good to have romance in your fics. I LOVE the pairing for the pure romance that some amazing writers have come out with. But. I can't stand when a character, ANY CHARACTER, gets castrated...and god, to see Heavy put in the role of Domestic Wifey Extraordinaire... Like I said, if it's played for laughs, then anything is funny once. But I've been noticing more and more that this is starting to become fanon and that alarms me. LOOK AT THE MAN. Does THAT look like 50's HOUSEWIFE TO YOU?!

...I thought not.

I know I'm late to the party on this one but I'll say it anyway: it drives me nuts when artists are so afraid of creating a Sue that they don't make their genderbends pretty at all. They can be proportional, small-chested, what-have-you, but the looming threat of criticism prevents them from making a somewhat facially aesthetic female. Nature DOES make pretty women and it makes them quite frequently. Just because they're cold-blooded doesn't mean they have to look like a pug.

>>9681

Maybe that's the joke?

I mean it's not like a juxtaposition of his size with a domestic life could be played for subtle laughs or anything, amirite?

>>9683
Like I said, played for laughs I can understand, subtle or not. I mean, it's funny. And done well, it can be cute. God knows I love romance as much as the next red-blooded female out there. The thing that bugs me is when there's no balance, where you never see any backbone to Heavy, just lapdog. It just rings so false to me, is all.

Cat, please don't think I'm talking about your Reunion Heavy with this. I'm not. YOU play it up with the humor, and Heavy has enough darkish humor of his own, as well as sharp words for Soldier, that I enjoy the juxtaposition immensely. But not everyone has your light touch and sense of humor.

Everytime i see in fics or art spy or medic talking in their native tongue to the team it makes me angry. Honestly, if someone french comes over you and start adding oui or mon ami everywhere, you'll just think he s'stupid.
For the heavy it kind of makes sense cause he don't speak a nice english.
But seriously, as a frenchie, i came to scotland during the holidays and i never ever started to speak french at the middle of my sentences cause that would just have been weird. Accent is okay, cause you can't hide it...

>>9973
Uh, dude? Medic and Spy talk like that in the game itself. Spy occasionally spouts random foreign phrases ("amigo", "non", "oui", "prego", "très bon") and Medic constantly replaces English words with German ones ("nein", "danke", "dummkopf!", "horrido", "jawohl", "schnell", "schweinhund", "nichts da", "raus", etc).

>>9973
Maybe Spy is proud of his country, and chooses to flaunt it?

I mean hell, even when I speak French, I occasionally through my little Canadian 'eh' in there, and other Canadianisms. It's how I talk, and I'm proud of it.
Maybe Spy and Medic are, too. Maybe it helps them to retain some bit of their culture in this place where they are now. Maybe that's important to them.

My captcha is laybrar and for some reason I think of Engie.

Well...I think common spy who is effeminate, not trusted by teammates, always sadistic and quite costumed to fagginess in fanfics isn't my type.
Aw, comeone. he can be quite friendly with his teammates since they're team. Even if it's scout. If each others are enemy, they should kill each, but they're in same team, you know.


And scout pretends to be normal almost always as if he is saying "I'm alone a normal and not mentally illed person in this place. not like you!".
And is weak, a kid, and deffenselessly gets abused.
Whenever I play medic, however, a scout almost seems to be a monster. Whereever I try to run away from him, its almost impossible to escape.
There's a big gap between fanfic's scout and game's scout.

>>9995
Game scout is an attention whore with a massive ego. So yeah.

It bugs me when Scout's skin is described as "pale" or "creamy". Just... What? Have you even seen the game model?

Also, RED Spy being rude and snide towards his own team feels a little odd. He's pretty civil towards them in the game itself (save for the occasional insult if they lose) and the comics have him treating Soldier the same way a parent would treat a kid with an overactive imagination.

>>10003
>>> and the comics have him treating Soldier the same way a parent would treat a kid with an overactive imagination.

I agree with your entire post, I just found that additional comment giggle-worthy.

As far as my peeves go, I'm just sick of seeing ineffectual Scout. The same goes for all the skinnier classes, but Scout seems to get the most amount of "oh, he's a new kiddo and he's so skinny and small; must be very weak" treatment in fiction. At least Medic/Spy/Sniper are shown holding their own or being agressors more often than not, and speaking of...
Not that it's guaranteably a poor plot device (and plenty of people have complained about this), but sadist/Nazi!Medic, creeper/rapist!Sniper and most-of-the-above!Spy stories just irk me somehow. I don't really know why, I've seen well-written stories with these types of characters, but they'll lose points in my books most of the time because those three characters will be written off as one-dimentional monsters. Plus, as someone who does like the classes overall, it's just cringe-worthy to see them act so unforgivably, you know?

Teddy bear heavy also annoys me. As does the fact that engie's generally either portrayed as a sweet ol' country boy or a horrible human being comparable with the types of Sniper/Spy/Medic I described above. As far as I can tell, those are two extremes of his personality.

tl;dr: I don't like exaggeration of certain characteristics of the characters, in favor for ignoring several other characteristics of said characters. It tends to make for one-dimentional stories.

When people single out Heavy, Soldier, Scout, or any other class as "the one all the dumb people play". Newbies choose whatever class they like best, and I've seen my share of dumb [every class in the game].

I cut people some slack if they're dumb sometimes. TF2 was my first FPS, and I still have no idea what I'm doing sometimes, a year later.

Am I the only one who looks at this image and thinks, "Child Abuse"? It squicks me in all the wrong ways.

>>10084
Ugh, you're definitely not alone. That tiny little thing barely looks 13 even with those ridiculous water balloon boobs.

>>10085

Agreed. Also, why is that phone off the hook? More disturbing implications...

>>10084

...Wha?

I just... I mean... That can't...

What the fuck IS this?

I have just died a little. That does NOT look like somebody at least over 18 years old.

>>10086

>>10085
>>10086
>>10090
>>10091

Literally, first thing that went through my head was "Why is BLU Engie raping his daughter?!?" It only came to me later that this is supposed to be the Scout. Ugh. And this was posted as if it was supposed to be HOT. I hate humanity now.

Well the Engineer is from Texas, So if he marries her it's legal.

Eugh, this thread has started to distress me. I can't say I find the picture all that disturbing because it's just porn and there's always worse, but now I can't look at it without being weirded out.

I hate it when people go on internet forums and call other people fantards when those people are just trying to get their jollies just like everyone else, and find it so important that they be dissociated with those people.

I find this entire thread to be in bad taste and I'm genuinely surprised it's gotten such a positive reaction from an otherwise welcoming and accepting community. I usually ignore what I don't like but I thought it would be in the spirit of the thread to post.

A friendly reminder of what I said before:

Participants in this thread are to play nice or I will send their ass home. It's a shame I have to even say this, but people like to get defensive and whiny about the things people may post here. If you see something in this thread that offends you, take deep breaths and think before giving a retort, if at all.

Don't even get started guys, I'm not joking. You are welcome to express your peeves but turn this into a debate and I will lock it and ban all offending parties.

>>9178

Can someone explain to me what exactly I'm looking at?

>>10084
Aww man now you guys make me feel bad for thinking this is actually hot.

>>9178
I haven't laughed that hard in years.

>>9192
This is more of what I expect of fem pyro. The rest really do pass me off.

>>10084 I know men who get off on this sort of thing. They have a genuine Loli complex. It's so creepy. I think they only like small girls so their dicks will look bigger.
This is actually turning into one of my biggest pet peeves about the fandom. The super kawaii uguuu girls that people insert as fem-(subject class goes here).
I guess I try to think logically, like, if I were out there fighting like these guys, would I really wear a skirt? Would I really wear a short skirt? The answer (for me) is NO. Heck NO.
Nor would I wear a belly shirt, or high heels, or a corset. I like some of the pinups that people do (theres a really great fem soldier pinup somewhere on the internet) but the thing is, they are pinups. A pinup girl wouldn't be fighting.
These guys have muscle, they bleed and sweat and kill. The women should match.

>>10116
Pardon me, it's 'Piss" not 'Pass'. My bad.

Her face doesn't look that young to me, but then again, I know a lot of people who look much younger than they are. Faces don't always match up with relative age. And for all we know, the artist's a younger woman who gets off on older men, not the other way around.

>>10085
if this girl have 17 years old, these boobs are very big for her age.(sorry if i'm wrong) I said that because in 60's "chickens with hormones" didn't exist. Now, it's normal to see a girl with that age and water balloon boob.

Oh look, it's this argument again.

Can we just stop where we are now and save everyone the future aggravation? Everyone has their own ideas on what sorts of things are acceptable for femclasses. These sorts of things ALWAYS go in circles.

And that is my contribution for the fantard abuse thread!

My least favorite thing to see is people taking pairings seriously, like getting upset if someone doesn't like their preferred ship. While this bothers me in any fandom, it really confuses me with this one, since at the core of it, we're really just shipping a bunch of psychotic, mostly-middled-aged mercenaries.

>>10122
That's the problem I have with threads like these. The entire thing devolves into gratuitous backpatting and circlejerking and anyone who has even a slightly different opinion gets run over by the mob. Legitimate discussion never comes out of threads that are inherently about bashing other people's likes and preferences. You can rationalize it all you want via her boobs are too big and her face is too young etc etc but in the end it doesn't matter. These threads promote groupthink and insularity and everyone who posts in it with a positive opinion perpetuates that.

Even worse, even a mod has given a seal of approval and threatens to ban anyone who disagrees. This was supposed to be a welcoming community about having fun and doing things that you like, not random lynching of people that have different turn-ons.

Who the hell said I gave this thread my seal of approval, Serain? From the beginning I knew people, such as YOU, would bitch about something like this. My first post said to play nice and that was directed at BOTH sides. Some people like stuff that other people don't like. Some people don't like stuff other people like. And if they can act like mature adults, then I'll let them talk about it. That's being a welcoming community isn't it? I've pointed out stuff in this thread that I've disagreed with without attacking someone for it. It's when people start getting BITCHY that I'll lay down my ban hammer. And if this is about the Nazi thread before, you must not have seen many discussions about Nazis that when smoothly without leaving a lot of butthurt in it's wake.

So what is it? Do we welcome differing opinions and share what we both like and dislike or do we say "No! You're not allowed to talk about what you like or dislike! People will feel excluded!"

Goddamn, you guys. If you disagree with something, you can say it, but there is no need for snide passive aggressive attacks. That is as much of a problem as people being open in their expression. So you have to make a decision: Am I as a mod going to have to not allow people to talk about these things anymore? Am I to ban everyone who expresses an opinion? Because I can start that if that's what you guys want me to do. After you guys give me an answer, this thread is being locked.

Can this thread stick around a little longer? It's one of my favourites because it has so many varying opinions. Even if people do argue a lot it is one of the most intreaguing things for me.

Did we just hit Godwin's law, or is that coming up yet?

There is one great change we could collectively do to improve the conversations happening in this thread. We need to review logical fallacies, particularly the fallacy of sweeping generalization, straw men, and ad hominem attacks. The closer we stick to laws of logic, the less likely we are going to make emotional appeals and thus upset others when the wrong emotions are struck. Debate can result in fascinating revelations and the occasional change in perspective. It's to this end that we should explain why we respond negatively to certain repeated stimuli.

Shall we have a sample argument? Let's review the image in >>10084. Aesthetics aside, this image bothers me because it looks like a young woman is being raped because of team color choices and her pained expression. If we want to get redundant, we could view my reasoning as the following: I don't like crime. Rape is a crime. Therefore, I don't like rape.

Furthermore, it bothers me that there is a phone off the hook in this image. To me, this implies that there is somebody else on the line listening to this rape occurring. Is it a member of this Engineer's team? The woman's team? The Administrator? What are they feeling about this, and are they going to do anything to help this young lady? There is tension with this situation that is unresolved, adding to my further unease.

It's not the case that I haven't written or dealt with sexual assault as a theme before. However, when I wrote about it, it was perceived by the victims as a confusing, terrifying event. It was not meant to stimulate arousal. Horror was my goal, and how I met that is up to the reader of my story. What is the purpose of this image? If it is to stimulate arousal, it did quite the opposite for me. That is why I look on this image with disgust and not amusement. To me, it's not a sexual image. It's criminal evidence.

Let's agree. Let's disagree. But most importantly, let's debate each other with an even temper. A diamond is the most valuable when it is properly cut. Let's be the same with our opinions and arguments.

>>10124
Let me start off by saying that I am completely unironically and unsarcastically pleased that you thought I would bitch and I am glad I have that sort of reputation. This is my method of disagreeing out in the open, and directly challenging. I don't think there's anything passive-aggressive about it. I'm using my name because I believe in taking responsibility for what I post. Unless I'm drunk off my ass and vaguely shouting obscenities.

What I am saying is that this thread should have been closed down from the very first post because the OP made it clear that it was not a respectful disagreement thread or about 'we all have our dislikes but in the end we will not judge anyone' thread. It's a thread about having fun at other people's expense who actually like those sorts of things, and those are a lot of people and yes, even people who visit this site. By not closing down the thread immediately, the backpatting was allowed to continue and consequently, the minority opinion was overrun, and new levels of double standards were achieved and I can point out several examples of all three. My problem is that it was clear that this was going to happen from the start, especially if the OP is name-calling from the very first sentence that is typed on the thread ("Fantards"). I'm okay with rational argument. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree. But this thread is not either of those things: It's a circlejerk filled with people who are making rationalizations for their dislike, when these rationalizations do not matter in the first place. (Though for the record I completely agree with closing down the Nazi thread. Some lines should not be crossed.)

The only other way I could allow for it to exist is if rules were clearly outlined and enforced with the purpose of achieving polite discussion and the betterment of the community. This never could have been that kind of thread, a thread for people to 'act like adults' when from the first post it was nothing but sarcasm, name-calling, and emotionally charged terminology. And I don't think anyone is delusional enough to believe that those kinds of posts don't alienate people.

That's all I have to say, and I am glad that this is getting closed down.

Friendly neighborhood Admin stepping in.

I'm going to be frank and say a couple things to everyone. Get the fuck along, get over the butthurt, no your ass will not be patted, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but you are NOT entitled to be making ad hominems and needlessly attacking other people over their opinions.

This thread allowed people to express their opinions and have frank discussions over those opinions civilly. However, a few of you decided the thread was in the wrong because someone, somewhere might have their delicate sensibilities hurt. Grow up, be the bigger person and pull up your pants and get over it. For fuck sakes.

Also, there's a rule that has seemed to have been forgotten.

Rule 8: Do not create drama. See a post you dislike? You have three options:
a. If it breaks the rules, click the tick-box next to the poster’s name, scroll to the bottom of the page, type a reason in the "Reason" field and then click the "Report" button. Do not respond to it.
b. If it does not break the rules but offends your delicate sensibilities, ignore it.
c. Calm yourself down. Take a deep breath, count to 10, release. Go for a walk if you need to - just don't post stupidly in response to it.

If it helps, I can make a new thread with a less contentious title. Yes, as the OP, I have been trying to stay out of this, but If I changed "Fantard" to "Fanon", would that be better?

And Serain, I get that not everyone feels the same about certain kinks. I get upset about rape and Child abuse. The sarcasm was an attempt to be funny about the specter of pregnancy among genderbent classes. It was not an attempt to go "Oh, look at these people, they SO HORRIBLE!" I admit to having a problem with tone, I am a bit Asperger's, so I don't always get tone, either in myself or others. I am trying to get better about it, but I don't always think about how what I am saying comes across.Sometimes, I don't get it until much, much later. Sometimes, I don't get it at all.

Not trying to excuse myself, just to explain.

>>10142

Really the only problem I see is maybe the use of "Fantard". Otherwise, there's nothing being said in the actual content of the OP and the rest of the thread in it's entirety that suggests one group of fans are better than another. If anything it just shows the diversity with all fans. The culture of TF2chan has shifted and it's obvious to me that it's users are not the callous assholes people keep thinking they are. In fact, I have more faith in TF2chan users than I do in other websites. And really, people shouldn't be taking something someone said on the internet not specifically directed at them so personally. It's really okay. No one has been trying to make anyone out as being inferior, just not sharing one's personal taste.

So yeah, I'll close this thread now, but someone is welcome to start a similar one again. You guys were doing fine as far as I can see, even if I disagreed with some of the things being said, nothing ever felt like an outright attack against anything except the concepts.